Battle of the TS saws

Posted on August 9, 2012 by Stuart

Back around March 2008, I posted quite a lot of information on this site as I went through the process of choosing a cabinet-type tablesaw.

Now four years on (believe it or not!!), and prompted by a recent query (given my tablesaw, the TS10L has been off the market for around 3 years) I can look back at the decision I made, and whether the apparent successor would have been a contender.

Tablesaw comparison - what floats your boat?

Saw Soup

This is also interesting as news filters through that may have gotten themselves as national importers/distributors of Jet power tools. Still a rumour at this stage though. Wonder if it will impact on Powermatic as well?

***Update: it is confirmed (information received independently from 3 different sources) that Carbatec have become the importers/distributors of Jet.  In doing so, it is likely that competing saws also made in Taiwan (such as the TSCE-10L) will no longer be available once current stocks are exhausted***

So 4 years on. The TS10L is still a great saw, and I still have no issues or regrets over the decision. No weaknesses or issues have come to light in that time, other than a couple of very minor items I resolved very early on – the antikickback pawls that were spring-loaded and causing damage to timber passing underneath (since removed), and the insert having to be lifted to get access to the guard/splitter quick release (solved by creating a new insert that can be removed from around the splitter).
So what features really make this saw, that are worth ensuring are included in other models?

Well many, but there are a number that do come to mind. The arbor lock for blade changing. Quick release for the splitter/guard. That the splitter/guard rises and falls with the blade. The left-tilting blade. The Biesemeyer-style fence. The large, heavy, flat tabletop that is significant on both sides of the blade and having two miter slots – one either side of the blade. The overall weight, and heavy manufacturing of the machine.

TS10L ….. TSC10HB Specification TSCE-10L
254mm 250mm Blade Size 254mm
16mm max*** 15mm max Dado Capacity 15mm max
Left Right Tilt Direction Left
3HP 15A 240V 3HP 15A 240V Motor 3HP 15A 240V
Induction Induction Motor Type Induction
2850 RPM Motor Speed 2850 RPM
4000RPM Blade Speed 4300 RPM
Triple Belt Drive Type Poly v-belt
5/8″ 5/8″ Arbor Diameter 5/8″
75mm 77mm Max Cut at 90° 75mm
69mm 58mm Max Cut at 45° 55mm
255/695mm Max Rip L/R 300/762mm
1072x739mm 1015x685mm Table Size WxD 1118x739mm
860mm Table Height 864mm
305mm Blade to Table Front 305mm
150mm Blade to Table Rear
Biesemeyer Style HD Al Lever Action? Fence Type Biesemeyer Style
Clear, Lifting Clear, Lifting Blade Guard Clear, Lifting
Quick Release, Floating Fixed, Anti-kickback Riving Knife Fixed Height *
Magnetic Contactor Magnetic Contactor Switch Type Magnetic Contactor
1×4″ 1×4″ Dust Port 1×4″
Cabinet Cabinet Stand Cabinet
1480x1100x980mm Footprint 1650x1100x1100mm **
220kg 190kg Weight 216kg **

* Error on website – riving knife does rise and fall

** Contradiction between website and latest catalogue

*** I have fitted more – up to 20mm from memory

So what does all this mean? Basically that it is very hard to tell machines apart on spec.

I’d be asking myself (and looking at floor models to see) where the additional 25+kg came from? Some is in the larger top, but the TS10L is not the largest of the three, but is the heaviest. Heavier mechanism (which is a good thing).

Left vs right tilt. I’ve heard justifications for both. I believe left tilt is a safer machine, so that is why I went that way. So did SawStop, and Powermatic. Think that is a pretty clear message.

Riving knives (and guards) are vital safety features. You cannot use them every cut, so one that is quick release is highly desirable. It has to work for you, not against you.

If I was in the market for a tablesaw again, I would first look at SawStop (for the quality of the saw, not just the safety feature), and Powermatic, and work my way down until I got to a model I could afford, rather than work my way up, trying to justify each price increase. In hindsight, I do not have any regrets spending the extra amount I did.

When looking at the machines in person, I would be looking at the strength of the mechanisms, smoothness of operation, quality of the motor (size is a bit of an indicator here – they are both the same power, but is one a lot smaller and therefore less robust internal construction / cheaper manufacture), quality of the fence and how easy it is to adjust/set it accurately to a measurement.

One thing that isn’t shown in the specs, is the accuracy to which the machine is made.  The TS10L has an impressive lack of runout in the arbor, both axially and radially.  This affects the accuracy of every single cut.  Before buying any machine, I would want to know / physically test the runout using a dial gauge.  Two similar looking machines with a large difference in tag price could boil down to one being superbly accurate, and the other being unfit for your purpose.

I don’t know the specs on the individual machines so this is a general comment.  When I did my “Battle of the Blades” soon after getting my machine, I tested the runout and was very impressed – it could have made the difference between every cut being rougher than need be, so is definitely worth considering.  http://stusshed.com/reviews/blade-review/

There is also a strong intangible element here – do you like the saw?  Will you regret not going for the larger/more expensive model in 2, 5, 10 years?  These are long term relationships you forge with large workshop machines – they should last a lifetime, and are not short term affairs as you get with cheap machines and disposable tools.  For the sake of a few dollars (and I do acknowledge the cost difference is significant) will you remain happy with the decision?

This article is definitely not a comprehensive look at current tablesaws, it is an attempt to address a specific question. If looking, there are other manufacturers and suppliers that you would have to carefully consider while making that crucial decision.

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The legendary TS10L

Posted on April 1, 2010 by Stuart

Despite information to the contrary, it appears that Carbatec Perth have received a shipment of the impressive TS10L tablesaw (the same one that graces my workshop).

No idea what this means about their availability, or what price they are, but if you are in the market for a great 10″ tablesaw, it’d be worth a phonecall or 2. One to your local Carbatec, and one to Perth. If anyone finds out more news about this, please post it here- price, number of machines available etc.

I am assuming/hoping that we are talking about the same machine here- the TS10L of old.

I am still a big fan of mine if you haven’t gathered. So Go Go Go!

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Transferring Power

Posted on December 19, 2009 by Stuart

Have you thought about the blade on your tablesaw, or in your circular saw, and actually considered how the power of the motor is transferred to the blade?

Although the arbor is spun by the motor, the power doesn’t transfer directly from the shaft to the blade.  Instead, it is the arbor flange, and arbor washer that do the final transfer of power, and that is achieved through the tightness of the arbor nut.  Yes, yes – what is the point I hear you ask.

Simply, the more contact area there is between the arbor washer & flange and the blade, the less chance of slippage.  Not only that, but these two items also provide significant stability to the blade, especially thin kerf blades.

About the only weakness I’ve found with my powerful TS10L is the arbor washer.  It appears to have been formed by a stamping, rather than a machining process.  Over time, this has compressed / collapsed, so the contact area was reduced to a thin strip all round, and has gone from contacting on the outside edge, to a ring very much (and undesirably) closer to the centre.

So it has become time to replace.  In the first instance, I have replaced it with a very stocky, machined arbor washer.  However it has also reignited a desire to track down blade stabilisers.  They don’t seem to be very common.  CMT have some in their range, so I am trying to source them through Carbatec.  They are effectively a large arbor washer for both sides of the blade, providing excellent load transfer, and primarily significant blade stability.  They do have a drawback that they reduce the maximum depth of cut, but for cuts where that is important, you can always remove them and resort to the normal flange & washer.

Replacement washer, Original (crushed) washer, Nut

A blade stabiliser is 2-3 times the diameter of the typical arbor washer.

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Episode 51 The Tablesaw

Posted on June 16, 2009 by Stuart
Episode 51 The Tablesaw
Formats available: MPEG4 Video (.mp4), Flash Video (.flv)
(Right-click, and select “Save Link As”) Best video quality is achieved by downloading then playing the mp4 version.

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Grand Central Station

Posted on March 22, 2009 by Stuart

Been like the proverbial around here today (and will be even more so tomorrow!)

Plenty of successful eBay bidders picking up their new tools (hope everyone is happy!).
Had Carl around to have a look at my TS10L.  Not sure if he was convinced or not, but I’m a big fan of the saw – wonder if it came across!

Also (with all that going on), had a mate around with his new lathe for the first mini-turnfest.  While there was a window of opportunity, we had both lathes up and running, making plenty of sawdust & chips.

Got to use my new Tormek jigs as well, to tidy some of my chisels that needed some TLC.  It’s a slow process, so not something I plan on doing as the only sharpening method, but with an aluminium oxide wheel on a grinder for quick touch-ups during turning, and then being able to get them back to an ideal shape as required.

Tomorrow Grand Central opens again nice and early, with the last collections of tools occuring, and more excitingly, finally some real power will arrive at the shed.  No, not another tool (yet), but real green steam.  I’ve ‘made do’ for so long, running extension cords, upgrading extension cords to ones that can carry more amperage, and still struggled to run the tools I need simultaneously.  (Lights, dust extractor, air filter, tablesaw or router, stereo).

Hopefully after all this, I will again be able to restore a sense of order to the shop, and get back on track for the longer term progress.  That router table is certainly begging to be completed.

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Using Timber for Zero Clearance Inserts

Posted on June 8, 2008 by Stuart

I’ve been discovering why timber is not used as a zero clearance insert on tablesaws.

The first problem discovered was with the anti-kickback pawls that on my table are attached to the riving knife, so they rise and fall with the blade height (which is a good thing), but the dig into the soft timber surface as you drop the blade height (pretty much doing what they were designed to do – stopping the timber moving backwards relative to the pawls), and that stops the blade height from being able to be dropped.

The second problem I discovered yesterday is that I made the inserts on a warmer day than it was yesterday, so when I went to raise the blade, the insert was binding one the blade as the whole insert was being squeezed by the now smaller hole in the tabletop, and the insert broke, being so tightly held in place.

Not even sure how a different material would react in the same circumstances (perhaps I can find one with a similar thermal coefficient of expansion to that of the tabletop). I might also look to see if I can source some of those grub screws that have the spring loaded bearing at the end and include those in the next insert.

Does go to show one other thing – despite nothing obvious having changed between one workshop session and the next, it is worth checking that the blade is spinning freely before use. It also proved useful that I leave the saw with the blade wound down and parked below the table surface, so the first job I had to do was raise the blade to the required height. If I had just left the blade exposed, and had not checked if it was spinning freely then in this case I probably would have stalled the motor, and blown a circuit breaker at best, or at worst, ripped the insert out of the table and thrown it across the room (in my general direction).

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The Battle of the Blades has begun

Posted on May 26, 2008 by Stuart

Had an opportunity over the weekend to start running the sawblades though their paces.  There were some unexpected, and rather surprising results from the tests.  I certainly haven’t gotten through all the blades yet, but already there were some definite stand-out blades, and some that fell rather short of expectation.

Had a couple of other woodworkers around to help (and I think they were interested in seeing what the various blades could do as well), so it was a good shed day.  (It was also the fomal commissioning of the saw :) )

To start off, we replaced the standard insert with a zero clearance one.  There are two reasons for this.  Firstly, it minimises tearout, and secondly (and more importantly for this session), we wanted easy access to the riving knife quick release. It’s how the original insert should have been designed.  No so much the zero clearance (because the blade cannot be tilted with one – you need a different insert for each blade angle), but the opening at the back to allow the riving knife and guard to be added and removed without having to lift the insert and reach underneath each time.

Zero Clearance Insert

Riving Quick Release

Closeup view showing the riving knife quick release

Creating the hole was made significantly easier with the addition of the Pro Drill Table on the drill press.  Might sound like a bit of a sell, but I found that it really did make the drill press more functional, and particularly for this job, having the fence to keep the individual holes lined up, and of course the superior holddowns.  Ok, enough of that, I just wanted to say that it really is a good upgrade!

DrillPress Table

Of the blades themselves, I won’t do a blow-by-blow (as yet), but one surprising result was the Linbide 24 tooth ripping blade.  We were all standing back when it came to cutting the melamine sheet.  The teeth, we thought, was going to literally eat and spit out this sheet, but instead it was “I can’t believe it’s not butter” (or in this case “I can’t believe it isn’t a dedicated melamine cutting blade”) as it was the cleanest of all the blades so far (and that includes the 100 tooth ones), on both the top and bottom surfaces.  Where it came to its actual forte, ripping, it was butter (and what it was cutting went as easy as if it was butter too!)  Quite outstanding.

***Update*** btw, I also discovered why pine isn’t typically used for zero clearance inserts when there are anti-kickback pawls.  Trying to lower the sawblade (which carries the riving knife and attached anti-kickback pawls) causes the pawls to dig into the surface of the zero-clearance plate, and stops the blade from being able to be lowered.  This isn’t true for all saws obviously, as many don’t have an attached riving knife, or anti-kickback pawls either.  In my case, I will look at getting some appropriately thicknessed UHMD plastic, or in the interum some MDF cored melamine.***

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Tablesaw and Fence Calibration

Posted on May 11, 2008 by Stuart

During the setting up of the Miter Express, I was giving some thought to the whole issue of sawblades and their different kerfs (thicknesses), the location of the arbor stop and the fence.

This may be an idiosyncrasy of left-tilt tablesaws, but with the arbor stop on the opposite side to the fence, it means the fence scale has to be recalibrated each time you change to a blade with not only a different kerf but also a different thickness body. If this holds true for right-tilt saws as well, I wonder if there is a market for a shim set you use with every blade to end up with a standard blade to fence distance.

In the meantime, I just hope the new Wixey Digital Fence gauge has an easy zeroing button like the others in the range. More research required!

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Saw Alignment and Incra Miter Express

Posted on May 11, 2008 by Stuart

It takes some time to really set the saw up properly as I’ve discovered recently. There are so many different variables that can affect saw accuracy.

Carbatec TS10L Cabinet Saw

However, with a combination of the Deluxe Alignment Kit I got from Carbatec, and a couple of the Wixey Digital gauges (the angle gauge and the height gauge), I think I got it all set up within ridiculous tolerances. Not that I’m complaining – I love the accuracy that they have allowed me. Now if only my woodworking was that precise!

Now on top of the saw, you might recognise a rather interesting contraption – yup, I got to set up the Incra Miter Express from Professional Woodworker Supplies, and even got to make a couple of quick cuts! I was rather indecisive for a while whether to mount it on the left-hand side, the traditional side for miter gauges (and yeah, I keep switching between the US spelling and the Oz spelling – can’t be helped – the product is called a Miter gauge), or because it is a left-tilting saw, it is meant to be run in the right-hand track (so the saw when tilted doesn’t cut into it).

I decided to go the right-hand side so I can do both mitre directions (angling the fence, and tilting the blade) while using the sled. I’ll probably (and the jury is still out on this one), mount the Incra SE1000 on the Miter Express, and set up the mitre gauge that came with the saw on the left-hand side for my general purpose cuts, which will pretty much all be 90 degrees. I have a bit of Incra fence from an old SE1000, so might look at mounting that to the mitre gauge so I can still use the Incra stop.

Incra Miter Express

This is the Miter Express as I was first setting it up (and before I decided which side to use it on). It is basically a commercial version of a crosscut sled, done with typical Incra accuracy, and incorporates a Mitre gauge for precise angles.

Incra Miter Express

Here on the correct side for a left-tilt saw (and it is now cut providing zero-clearance), so the decision is made. It takes any typical mitre gague, and not just the Incra ones. Here I was using it with the one that came with the TS10L. The built-in track provides channels for hold-downs (and it comes with an Incra holddown).

All in all, it provides a very smooth way to feed your work into the blade, with good ability to secure the work and keep fingers well away from danger. I can see it getting a lot of use as I start to try to improve my box-making skills, and other precise work. Sure, you do loose some resaw height, but when you are doing precision stuff, you are less likely to need full blade height, and you haven’t lost any more than if you made your own cross-cut sled that everyone seems to recommend anyway.

I’m looking forward to bringing some results to you from this (as you can see though from the last photo, the next project has to be dust extraction!!!)

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The MagJig and the Incra Fence

Posted on May 6, 2008 by Stuart

I had an idea a while ago as soon as I saw the MagJig by MagSwitch – this has the potential to a problem that has perplexed me for ages. How do I get in incredible accuracy of the Incra LS Positioner fence on the Triton?

The problem was always fixing the fence down well enough to use the fence accurately, yet able to be removed easily, and without damaging the Triton top (ie drilling holes etc). Now that I also have a cast-iron cabinet saw, it also provided the perfect solution for using the Incra fence on that as well (and there is NO way I’m drilling holes into that top!!)

So off to the drill press, and a couple of 40mm diameter holes later, and the MagJigs inserted, we have a perfect solution.

MagJig by MagSwitch

The MagJig inserted through the mount that I use for the LS Positioner on the router table

MagJig by MagSwitch

The LS Positioner secured firmly to the tabletop. Now, to qualify the photo, I have removed the vertical panel support from the LS Positioner, but I have not removed the Wonderfence, which you certainly would before using the LS Positioner on the tablesaw.

Secondly, I would definitely use the Deluxe Aligner to ensure the fence was perfectly parallel with the blade (or more precisely with the mitre slot in the table.

The Deluxe Aligner is perfect for the task. (Obviously this is a photo from my file, and is not aligning the fence!!)

Finally, and one of the great things about the Incra LS Positioner is once it is set up and parallel to the blade, it is an absolute cinch to zero the fence to the blade, allowing extremely accurate cuts to be made. You’d definitely want to ensure an absolute minimum of blade runout, because the LS Positioner will give 1/1000th of an inch accuracy to your cuts!

And just to prove a point, here it is on the Triton, turning it into a precision machine!

Incra LS Positioner on Triton with MagSwitch

There will definitely be more posts / video on this in the future – the possibilities are too good not to explore this further. (Again, if this was actually about to be used, the Wonderfence would be removed leaving the straight fence only). Attaching a false (MDF) fence to that would then allow the blade to be partially buried in the fence for shaving cuts, or the use of a dado blade (but not on the Triton obviously!)

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